New Information About Murders Of Oppositionists In Belarus Is Another Step To Hague Tribunal
- 17.12.2019, 13:32
Lukashenka’s seventh term can only be in prison.
Coordinator of the European Belarus civil campaign Dzmitry Bandarenka took part in the special issue by the Belsat TV channel and commented on the sensational confessions of former SOBR fighter Yuri Garavski, who declared to the DW that he participated in the abductions and killings of Belarusian oppositionists 20 years ago. Charter97.org provides the text version of the conversation to your attention.
– Dzmitry, you remember late 90s better than anybody else. You were among the organizers of the Freedom March in 1999. It is worth mentioning that about 30 thousand people took to the streets back then. Was it a dangerous time for Lukashenka?
- It was a dangerous time for Lukashenka, and I want to add that we prepared this March together with Viktar Hanchar. Few people knew this, but I already spoke about it a couple of times, and now I want to repeat once again that we prepared this March with him.
He was going to hold a meeting of the Supreme Council on the day of the March. And people would support this meeting and give certain guarantees of security for those deputies who took part in it. This was Hanchar’s plan and this was one of the goals of the Freedom March. But a month before the action, Viktar and his friend Krasouski disappeared, and were killed.
– As we can see in the film by DW, they are speaking about the monetary reward every participant of the Hanchar execution got - $ 1,000. To kill a person for $ 1,000 each, roughly speaking. It also becomes obvious that Viktar Hanchar was a very dangerous man, personally for the ruler of the country.
- Hanchar is a very complex person, and he understood that he needed to correct the mistake that he had made while supporting Lukashenka.
I knew that he was tormented by this, and he saw his mission in correcting this mistake, but he was a lawyer to the core, and wanted everything to be in accordance with the law. He prepared a lot of documents that convicted Lukashenka of violating the Constitution and other laws. He wanted to carry out this procedure (impeachment - edit.) at a meeting of the Supreme Council, which at that time was still the legitimate authority in Belarus.
I want to say that Henadz Karpenka, and Viktar Hanchar, and Yury Zakharanka - these were the people who would win over Lukashenka in the so-called presidential election. And each of them Lukashenka had reason to fear.
– What impression did you have when watching the material authored by Deutsche Welle?
- I got the impression that the Lord today wants to open the eyes of Belarusians. After so many years, our martyrs, the rebels in Vilnius, left the mountain themselves. Today, people who executed illegal death sentences against leaders of the Belarusian opposition are making confessions.
And what will Belarusians do with this? As it’s fashionable to say now, there is nothing new for me here. Take the movie authored by Stsiapan Sviatlou (NEXTA) “Lukashenka. Criminal materials”: people say “there is nothing new here, I knew all this.”
In Slovakia, for example, when they learned that a journalist had been killed, hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets. Well, thousands of Belarusians came out in Vilnius - what now? This is a question to every Belarusian today.
– Maybe this is the Russian special services wanting to reveal something about Lukashenka?
– The Russian special services do have incriminating evidence against Lukashenka, not just this one. A lot of it. But I want to underline - it was Germany, the Deutsche Welle, which uncovered the truth.
– This is where former SOBR fighter Yuri Garavski addressed to.
– And I know that the Chief Prosecutor of Belarus addressed the Russian special services and the Russian authorities with regard to this issue. And the Russian authorities did nothing about this. No criminal case was opened. Germany today is forced to react to this truth, because Germany is a country where the law rules. This is not Russia.
– So, you don’t believe that Deutsche Welle could have been manipulated to get involved into this game by the Russian special services, which had prepared a sort of an extra trump card against Lukashenka before this Friday, the day of signing the agreement? (on the “Union State” - edit.)?
– I know that Lukashenka is a murderer and a thief.
– These are strong words.
- Lukashenka personally gave orders to torture people who were in custody after 2010. I went through this myself. And today I am very surprised at those people who say: “Let's unite around Lukashenka, he is the guarantor of the Constitution and independence.” You can’t unite around him because he is a murderer.
And the second: the Russians have incriminating evidence that he is a murderer. And at the same time, we hear today the proposals of the “ladies in embroidered shirts” from the ward #6: “Let's unite, and then make me a presidential candidate”. It is obvious that today there is an attempt to silence the NEXTA film, because everything was said there, and 3 million Belarusians watched this film.
- The authorities have recognized the film as “extremist.”
- The criminal government recognized it as such.
- What do you think when we hear that “everyone knows this, there is no sensation, we have known about it for 20 years”?
- I say that there is a very great resemblance to the Kalinouski case. People knew that the rebels were buried on Gediminas Mountain, they knew that they were killed - but the moment of truth came, the time came, something unusual happened. And these heroes were buried properly at the state level.
The same thing is happening with our heroes: Karpenka, Hanchar, Krasouski, Zavadzki.
- But when? In 100 years?
- It depends on Belarusians. I already spoke about this at the time when Belarusians voted for Andrei Sannikov and other leaders. They went to the second round, and Lukashenka lost the election. Yes, the action was dispersed. But it was necessary to fight for our leaders.
And whether Belarusians are able to fight for their leaders is an existential question today, here and now.
- The question is, are there any leaders?
- These leaders exist. Hanchar was a leader. It’s strange to hear when they say: “What was the film for?” And where is Hanchar? Where is Krasouski? Where is Zakharanka? Did Statkevich serve his 8 years in prison? Or was he sitting on the couch writing text messages and something on the Internet?
There are real heroes - and they must be protected. We sometimes hear: “There are no heroes - I will not come out.” Good. Hanchar was killed. Today, the man spoke - and they killed him. He was dangerous for Lukashenka. And here the question arises: there are heroes, but is there the Belarusian nation? That is the question.
- It is clear that a reaction is needed. The society must respond. But how to respond?
- Very different people continued to investigate this case at different times. And here also the existential question arises: “Who is Aleh Alkayeu?” (Ex-head of the Minsk pre-trial detention center #1, who spoke about the killings of oppositionists - Charter97.org). We can say that this person in a sense has a terrible biography. But the man made his choice, dramatically changed his life, went to Germany, because the voice of God said to him: “You must tell the truth to the people.” And he made that decision.
We know that Vadzim Kabanchuk and his comrades conducted an investigation, KGB officer Ugljanitsa also participated in it, and they also told the truth.
The officers who left, about whom Aleh Vouchak spoke ... Aleh himself is involved in this investigation, risking a lot. There are heroes, there are people who do this.
And this is a matter of choice for every Belarusian.
- This is very risky.
- Of course. But even this person, Yuri Garavski - I believe him. He said that he was involved in these activities.
- Journalists of the Deutsche Welle generally say that this is not a matter of trust.
- I hope that Deutsche Welle decided to make this film, dared to take such step after the person had passed the polygraph test. I think that without this there could not be such a film.
We can also call General Lapatsik, Prosecutor General Bazhelka, and the KGB General Matskevich, because they gave the order for the arrest of SOBR commander Paulichenka, they knew the truth. And today, life shows us that you can’t hide the truth. It does not matter whether the event was 150 years ago or 20 years ago.
- Okay. The truth cannot be concealed, but Paulichenka says that “this is all not true, there’s nothing to talk about”.
- There is Muravyov the hanger and there is Paulichenka. I think these are figures of the same scale. And there is Viktar Hanchar and there are Kalinouski and Serakouski.
Each of us has eyes and ears to make a choice. Who do you trust more - Kalinouski, Serakouski, Hanchar - or Paulichenka and Muravyov the hanger? This is the question today.
To sit at home, keep silent, and wait for someone to bring you a good life - or take a certain extent risk, without grace danger, and take to the street with thousands of other people? And this question, believe me, everyone asks themselves.
Yes, there is a contract system - but this is not death. If I say nothing, what will happen to my children, my grandchildren? They will continue to live under an even greater dictatorship for many years. If I myself do not take risks, then I suggest that my children and grandchildren resolve this issue and then they will have to take this risk.
And we know that this system can take root. And that is the main question. I made a choice for myself at the time and continue to participate in the Belarusian resistance precisely because I personally knew Henadz Karpenka, knew Viktar Hanchar, met several times with Yury Zakharanka. And most importantly: I know the widows of our missing people, their daughters, children. And my participation in the resistance is necessary just for justice to win. It is important. This is important for Vouchak and Kabanchuk. People are doing something for this. Everyone seeks a motive, decides whether to act or not.
- What does the authorities need to do so that the people finally react?
- Alkayeu said that Fuji should be built - but it has already been built.
- This is an interview of 2011 …
- The Chernobyl Fujiyama in Astravets has been built. And this is a question not only for Belarusians, but also for European officials. Because among them there are different people. There was Senator John McCain, who also knew about this matter and spoke on this subject, there was and is PACE special rapporteur Christos Pourgourides, the hero of this film, who took certain actions - and there are officials who say that Lukashenka is a “warmly person”, kiss with him, have common interests, business.
The dictatorship is contagious, and those who hobnob with Lukashenka, have different dirty business with him - they, too, catch dirt. But this is Lukashenka’s goal to show that “you in the West are what you are.” This is a question for Belarusians, and for Poles, and for the residents of Europe.
This Fuji can explode. The same Dalia Grybauskaite (ex-president of Lithuania - Charter97.org) made certain mistakes, but then she tried to fix it and said that the nuclear power plant in Belarus is dangerous for the whole of Europe. And the “Chernobyl” TV series reminded us of this …
You already asked this question to Alkayeu several years ago. This means that not so few people are committed to this and share your approach, believe that Alkayeu showed courage, that Vouchak is a brave man, and thank Christos Pourgourides for the fact that he may be the only European to take certain steps.
- Yury Sivakou called the interview by Deutsche Welle a very professional spread of false stories before the meeting between Lukashenka and Putin …
- Or maybe Lukashenka will not meet with Putin? What did he say: “I do not want to meet, I am leaving the Eurasian Union, the “union state” is evil for Belarus”? Where are such ideas?
If I were the head of state, I would think where it is profitable: in the Eurasian Union and the “union state”, or with the European Union. I know that in Lithuania, Latvia, Poland people live much better. And then he is “forced” to go to Moscow. Go to Poland, you were invited, go to Berlin. Do not want? Why? Because there is compromising evidence in Moscow. Because he is a Russian puppet.
As Kalinouski said: “Only then will we begin to live well when there is no Muscovite above us.” Another thing is also true: when Lukashenka is not above us, then Belarusians will get a chance for a better life. Therefore, let's not deal with this nonsense and send Alex to Russia. Let him go to Moscow and not return.
- But this is all rhetoric.
- No, this is not rhetoric. This is true and political will. And this nonsense “let's support the bastard killer and unite around him” ... How is it? You can unite around Hanchar, around Kalinouski, around Statkevich, around Seviarynets. But it’s impossible to unite around murderer Lukashenka, who destroyed the Belarusian-language education.
I understand that many secret admirers of Lukashenka would appear from the opposition. And for them, today's information is a cold shower. And hence these disputes: Russia - not Russia ... The Deutsche Welle revealed the truth. And how is it connected with the false stories of Putin? Let's believe the facts.
- What can we do with all these facts?
- The facts that this appeared on the Deutsche Welle, and that the person who confessed having committed this crime is outside Belarus, can be the first step to the Hague Tribunal. Perhaps it is necessary to create an international commission in which Christos Pourgourides and the German special services would take part. And there are a lot of Belarusians who were engaged in this business and have something to tell them.
A lot of officers, former security officials from Belarus are now in different European countries and even in America. It is possible to do this. Because we will never get anything from Russia. Russia has information on this subject. Prosecutor General Bazhelka provided all information there. But they did nothing, they would not start this trial. The court must be under international jurisdiction. I am not a lawyer, but I think that this can be a starting point. Because it is a crime against humanity and people.
- Would also mean the end of the road to Europe for Lukashenka?
- You know, I don’t care about his fate. I care about the fate of Belarus. Will we allow this person, the dictator, to come to power for the seventh time? And how many misfortunes and deaths for Belarusians will he bring over the years?
Today we need to think about it. There is no seventh term for Lukashenka! Because his seventh term can only be in prison. Today, there is already enough evidence, only regarding destruction of Lukashenka’s political opponents. Let's talk about it. And Moscow, not Moscow, Sochi - this is all rubbish.
Algerians came out and said: “No. We do not want this dictator for the fifth term.” Sudanese rebelled and said: “We do not want him to go for a fourth term.” Ukrainians made their choice regarding Yanukovych. This is a question to us. Let’s stop “taking these tests,” what Putin and Lukashenka are doing. Let's act. And we have enough heroes.